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 Gym battling rules clarification

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Burliest Bear
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PostSubject: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:57 am

Need a clarification on the super-effective clause for gym battles. As written, the rule states that a total of four (4) pokemon with super-effective moves may be used, though only two (2) may be typed against the gym.

Because of this, I am being denied Flash's badge.


According to the official battling rules:
5. Super effective clause No more than two super effective pokemon. This means you can't have more than two pokemon of a type that is super effective against the gym leader/elite 4 member's type. You also can't have more than two pokemon with super effective moves against the gym leader/elite 4 member's type.

Last checked, "also" meant "in addition to." It does not mean "either." I have further discussed this issue, via PM, with Aurath prior to taking on my first gym:

"Checking challenge team legitimacy
From Yf To Aurath, Thu May 22, 2014 2:58 pm
For challenging DF, still not 100% on supereffective clause.

As follows:

* Tyranitar (mega) with Crunch
* Aegislash with Shadow Sneak
Kelfki with Foul Play
other three have no supereffective moves or typings for psychic.

Would this be legal?"
Re: Checking challenge team legitimacy
Aurath wrote:
the rule is no more than 2 super effective Pokémon.... Although its not 100% clear on how many moves you can carry. I would say its fine having klefki with you.

Convo with Flash:
"[22:35:23] @ Flash18 : you dont get the badge
[22:35:25] @ Flash18 :
[22:35:31] @ Flash18 : cause you broke the rules
[22:35:49] Yf : ...which ones? No more than two typed against you, and I never used entry hazards.
[22:36:13] @ Flash18 : Heatran+earth power... ground type.. gliscor..ground type, and garchomp ground type
[22:36:20] @ Flash18 : 3 super efective pokemon
[22:36:25] @ Flash18 : insteand of the allowed 2
[22:36:26] @ Flash18 :
[22:36:47] Yf : I checked this with Aurath already. It's for typing. You can have an additional two pokemon with supereffective moves, but not typing.
[22:36:57] Yf : Heatran is Fire/Steel.
[22:37:06] @ Flash18 : such lie
[22:37:09] @ Flash18 : ask again
[22:37:34] Yf : I have already, and gotten a clear response.
[22:37:46] @ Flash18 : no badge till i ask
[22:37:51] @ Flash18 : cause this comes from GC
[22:37:54] Yf : I'll send you the damn PM
[22:38:07] @ Flash18 : no way oyou can have 4 pokemon that have advantage over the gym leader
[22:38:15] Yf : Aurath Thu May 22, 2014 3:01 pm the rule is no more than 2 super effective Pokémon.... Although its not 100% clear on how many moves you can carry. I would say its fine having klefki with you. Aurath Yf Thu May 22, 2014 2:58 pm For challenging DF, still not 100% on supereffective clause. As follows: * Tyranitar (mega) with Crunch * Aegislash with Shadow Sneak Kelfki with Foul Play other three have no supereffective moves or typings for psychic. Would this be legal?
[22:39:18] @ Flash18 : and? where is the response?
[22:39:51] Yf : It's on the top. I copied the whole comment thread.
[22:39:59] Yf : Aurath's, the latest, is listed first.
[22:40:26] Yf : Also, direct from the rules: 5. Super effective clause No more than two super effective pokemon. This means you can't have more than two pokemon of a type that is super effective against the gym leader/elite 4 member's type. You also can't have more than two pokemon with super effective moves against the gym leader/elite 4 member's type.
[22:40:36] Yf : Two and two.
[22:41:32] Yf : I had two supereffective typed pokemon and two pokemon with supereffective moves. Neither goes over the posted limits.
[22:41:51] Yf : http://pokemonwars.forumotion.com/t609-pokemon-wars-general-battle-rules
[22:42:38] @ Flash18 : nope, wrong
[22:42:55] @ Flash18 : gym matches have always been eithert wo super efective types
[22:42:59] @ Flash18 : or two super efective moves
[22:43:04] @ Flash18 : or any combination
[22:43:12] @ Flash18 : ask any gym leader
[22:43:12] Yf : It doesn't say "either," it says "also."
[22:43:29] Yf : Last checked, "also" was synonymous with "in addition to."
[22:44:17] Yf : So, the rules need to either be re-written for accurate use of the English language, or I followed them, as posted.
[22:44:22] @ Flash18 : .
[22:44:37] @ Flash18 : ill ask aurtah to re write the clause
[22:44:48] @ Flash18 : no more than two pokemon
[22:44:59] Yf : Really, really not cool.
[22:45:29] Yf : I followed the rules. It ain't my fault people can't figure out how to convey their intentions properly.
[22:45:30] @ Flash18 : how many badges do you have?
[22:45:36] Yf : Three.
[22:45:56] @ Flash18 : and you have used more that 2 super effective moves/types agains the gyms?
[22:45:58] Yf : DF's was my first, which is why I personally verified my interpretation with Aurath before battling.
[22:46:07] Yf : Yes, because those were the posted rules.
[22:46:15] @ Flash18 : and Df said nothing?
[22:46:28] Yf : I 6-0 him with Tyranitar.
[22:46:39] Yf : Envi said nothing when I battled her as well.
[22:46:44] @ Flash18 : then he never realized
[22:46:47] Yf : Aurath confirmed my interpretation when I asked him.
[22:46:51] @ Flash18 : and with envy?
[22:47:05] Yf : The only one that seems to dislike the way the rules are written is you.
[22:47:17] Yf : Everyone else has agreed with or posted no objection.
[22:47:17] @ Flash18 : ask any gym leader
[22:47:19] @ Flash18 : ask DF
[22:47:29] @ Flash18 : tell him what you did in my gym
[22:47:38] @ Flash18 : do not mention the PM to aurath
[22:47:42] @ Flash18 : and you will see
[22:47:54] @ Flash18 : those have been always the rules
[22:47:54] Yf : No, I absolutely will mention the PM to Aurath.
[22:48:02] Yf : That was a confirmation from one of this site's admins.
[22:48:05] @ Flash18 : ok, did you saved the video?
[22:48:08] Yf : And the rules, as written, support my argument.
[22:48:09] @ Flash18 : cause i did not
[22:48:19] Yf : I saved it.
[22:48:31] @ Flash18 : ok"

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[ST] Scyther_03
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:44 am

ok.... just from me as i was also unsure of this but when i inquired bout this i was told only 2 Typed super effectives and also (in addition) they only two super effective move may be used..." IE: im facing my old gym ice: i can use charizard & tyranitar they effectiv types... if i use say nidoqueen (non effective) and she uses say stone edge (if she can not sure) then iether Charizard or Tyranitar wont be able to use super effective moves against the gym" if that makes sense.
So if it were my gym and you had 3 pokemon using supereffective moves i would have called it disqualified.. cause thats how its been done since i first got here.
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Burliest Bear
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:06 am

But my point is that is not what's written in the rules. Convention is all well and good for those that know it, but it's not conveyed to newcomers.

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:07 am

I don't see how its so hard to read the rules. It's always been a combination of super effective type and super effective moves. That makes up 2 of your party.
Why do you think its so hard to beat far or flash sometimes? If i had 4 pokemon that were super effective or had super effective moves i might have their badges already. It makes it a much fairer match otherwise its impossible to cover their weaknesses.
Want an example?
Say i'm battling flash's gym. He is electric so i'll pick garchomp (part ground) with earthquake. He will expect another ground so i'll choose Goodra also with earthquake. The rest of my team types will not be super effective against ground nor will they have ground type moves.
Its pretty simple once you read the rules properly, and using common sense
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Burliest Bear
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:14 am

Blue, I directly cited the rules in my original post, which is where I pointed out the distinction between "also" and "either."

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[ST] Scyther_03
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:18 am

also can also mean "at the same time" only using 2 super effective moves.
but i think that maybe it should be written out as ("at the same time" only using 2 super effective moves.) too avoid any further confusion as i do understand how you perceived it
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Burliest Bear
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:22 am

For clarification, it literally means "in addition." There are no other interpretations.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/also
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/also

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:43 am

fair enough, but also remember American English and European English so maybe GC use the word incorrectly and i can understand the situation but also if im correct this has been brought up before and as of this nothing was changed in order to clarify the meaning.

I know you want ur badge and yes you feel a bit robbed. but i dunno only thing i could possible think is half half fair is to have a mini remattch using only 3 pokemon flash uses 3 from his gym and you use three and one of the can be Effective and one (in addition to) can use effective moves aswell but not type.

but then again i dont even think i have Rank or Right to Propose any of this but ya. if i did that would be what i would propose
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:50 am

Honestly, this is like the third time I've been burned by poor wording on this site. I really don't think I want to participate any further with competitive battling here, but I'll wait for more input before making that decision.

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:54 am

Im seriously sorry to hear that Bud, i know you a great competitor and i honestly enjoy battling and chatting to you. if i were able to i would go through the whole site and word/grammer check it but i am unable to best we can do now is hope that one of the Mods/Admins do it. and just from me thanks for always being willing to help someone out (mostly me) and being the great guy u are. i hope Aurath/PP/Dialga can sort this out "Peacefully"
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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:59 am

…You're always getting yourself in this kind of mess, aren't you Yf? Oh well… from what I can see in a nutshell is that you battled with what you thought was allowed, but wasn't. That was a mistake, and one that wasn't really yours. However, because you didn't follow the rules the badge doesn't count. You won't get caught for cheating, but a rematch would probably be necessary. Your point is true, and the rules should be checked for grammar mistakes, or a topic like this might be made again.

Just note that my name isn't in green, so this is mainly opinion, not law. Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule means you can't use two super effective Pokemon, and you can't use two Pokemon with super effective moves. Example, you can have a flying type and a fire type at a grass gym, but if one of them doesn't have any super effective moves then a different type Pokemon could have some. This whole debate's gonna be a pain.

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:27 am

Ok I want to clarify that the rules stat AS YF shows them that a challenger can use no more than two Pokémon with a type advantage to the gym. you also cannot have more than two Pokémon with super effective moves.

This mean a challenger cannot use a two moves or two Pokémon that have moves or typing super effective to the gym...

However, I disagree with this rule and as such I don't take them into consideration in my E4 battle.

In Flash's case, he uses Electric, so I agree carrying any more ground types would break the rules, however I feel its over kill to not be able to use Heatran with earth power as it gets no boost.

I need to remind you all that these rules are GC's.
I feel that if a challenger has to only being either or 2 pokemon with a type advantage or a pokemon with a move with a type advantage you killing off a lot of pokemon to use in some gyms.

If we were to take on a Rock gym, you would have to insure NONE of your other pokemon carried any of the 5 moves super effective to Rock type, or alteast not use them...

I Personally feel that the rules should be as they were on Pokémon Nation.

5. The challenger is unable to use more than two Pokémon with a type advantage over the gym or Elite 4.

Seeing as GC is not around we cannot clarify what he ment when he said you cannot use two super effective pokemon. You cannot use more than two pokemon with super effective moves.

It contradicts itself in different places.

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:31 pm

Hmm, I've always known it as only 2 super effective Pokemon or 2 Pokemon with super effective moves. However, I hardly pay attention to that rule in my own gym battles, so I guess I've been giving out some badges wrongfully. xD

However I honestly have no complaint with it either way. Two, four, I don't care. Maybe someone should bring this to court, if it's arguable xD

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:22 pm

I agree entirely with Dem here. That is how we have all known the rules to be. Notice those of us who arrived to PW when GC was present are the ones tha follow the "two supereffective rule", it's simply how we were taught. So Flash was only defending the rule we were taught. Rule #5


All I'm saying is that none of us were notified of this rule, Aurath. Hence the rule of which Yf and Aurath speak of is not official, Yf was disqualified, so he does not get a badge. Yf, had you challenged me, we would have had the same argument, because this is the first time I have ever heard of this rule.

Solution: Yf doesn't get the badge, but instead a rematch; let's hVe a poll on weather to run the two supereffective rule, or update it to what Yf said. I consider this significant since many challengers have complained about this before. A Yf said, it does limit the pokemon who are allowed in a gym battle. But you know, just my thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Gym battling rules clarification   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:37 pm

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