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 How should we tier Blaziken?

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How should we Tier Blaziken?
Uber
33%
 33% [ 5 ]
OU (But ban Mega form)
27%
 27% [ 4 ]
OU (including Mega)
40%
 40% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 15
 

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Burliest Bear
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:18 pm

So there are counters to the counters - and likely counters to that... Kinda like the rest of the metagame, right?

And while it would certainly make those battles more challenging, everyone's running Talonflame in the E4 challenges anyway... Razz


EDIT: Speed is reduced to 25% - only Gen6 change was that Electric pokes cannot be paralyzed, even through Glare.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:20 pm

i mean... you could sack thunderus to prankster t-wave blaziken and likely die because you'll get smacked by flare blitz, and then come in with something else and revenge kill... but that's not really a counter as it gives up switch priority.

There are other sneaky things you can try to do liek switch in ghost types into blaziken...

So basically there are only 6 non-uber Pokemon that resist Fire/Fighting:

1) Slowbro - perhaps Blaziken's only true counter but still struggles after SD: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2) Jellicent - not bulky enough on physical side - can't wall after SD: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 354-417 (87.6 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
3) Swanna - not OU relevant, not going to even both with the calcs
4) Azumarill - Aquajet won't kill a healthy Blaziken, and Azumarill won't enjoy taking high-jump kick at +2: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
5) Slowking - the specially defensive version of Slowbro... if Slowbro is struggling, how do you think Slowking is gonna fair?
6) Starmie - Who runs defensive starmie anyway? besides, starmie's defences are low compared to Slowbro's, AND GIVEN WE DIDN'T BAN AEGISLASH STARMIE IS DEAD WEIGHT ON MOST TEAMS

Also, consider the fastest no-setup common pokemon in OU, Choice Scarf Terrakion. Jolly, 252 speed terrakion with a choice scarf hits 519 speed. Adamant blaziken at +2 IS ACTUALLY 518 OMG JOLLY TERRAKION CAN REVENGE KILL BLAZIKEN EVEN WITH THE SWITCH TURN AND THE PROTECT TURN. HMMMM...

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:52 pm

Haha, does that mean you're considering Blaziken for OU, Far?

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:34 pm

hmmm but 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I guess you have to run quake in which case... 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 292-344 (97 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

still not a sure thing...

OK say it is... we've got Terrakion that can revenge kill. We have slowbro that has a shot at walling. We have Azumarill that can revenge kill if Blaziken took lots of hazard damage, but otherwise will be down to the red zone if forced to use waterfall...

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:40 pm

And the ever-present Talonflame.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:29 pm

But talonflames defence are paper thin and it takes 50% from stealth rocks while Blaze takes only 25%.

You even with t-wave, two turns later its like you did nothing to the blazekin anyways and then its likely to just baton pass away its boosts. It was banned because of its baton pass abilities, even if we banned just that move on it, its still a huge threat. The bonus for anyone facing Talonflame is its likely to kill itself with Brave bird or flareblitz recoil, Blaziken doesn't have to rely on recoil moves to make it.

I feel that if the only wall that can take on Blaze is slowbo and its two hit KO'd after a SD... then its a bit over powered...

Even then... what is Slowbro gonna do to Blaze? you switch in the turn it sets up an SD, it gets a Speed boost, it protects on your scald and gets a speed boost, then it Baton passes away at full HP to something else, ready to come out when the baton passed Pokémon faints.... even if you had your counter to Blaze in already, Blaze could just baton pass a speed boost. I feel there's to few counters.. only other think I can think of is to trap it in or perish song it.... but there is no Pokémon fast enough to do both... Gengar being the only one and its outspend on the second turn and anyone who doesn't attack Gengar twice with there blaze should be using it.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:45 am

Milotic takes down Blaziken handily, as does Feraligatr. Belly Drum Aqua Jet Azumarill is an unblockable threat if you predict wrong and Cofagrigus walls it and destroys the Speed Boost. Anything with Earthquake typically oneshots it, as will a Hydro Pump (try taking out a Rotom with Blaziken...) Hell, Starmie takes it down in one turn. Neutral

Given that Blaziken needs several things to go perfectly in order to get going and remains quite frail, I just can't see it as an Uber pokemon, except in Mega form.

A Jolly, max speed invested Blaziken (284@100) will still be outsped by most Scarf users, even after a Speed Boost, presuming they protected Round 1. At that point, it cannot Baton Pass, boost or do anything else without first taking that hit... And with those defensive stats, it doesn't take any hits well. Togekiss, the most frequently Scarfed monster in the game, can force a sudden death speed tie, for example. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:10 am

For those players who hope to baton pass boosts, they will likely pack sash.
Blaze can still get one speed boost off and pass it onto something that need the boost with a first turn protect.

I don't know about you, but when was the last time you saw Milotic in competitive battling? As for Belly Drum Azumarilll, its the ultimate risk vs reward. If the Blaze user guesses belly drum, Azumarill is going down, If not, its still not gonna outspeed Blaze other than with Aqua Jet, presuming no sash. Regardless, Azumarill isn't very common.

I Just feel that With Blaziken in Uber, the meta game will remain balanced, as such I still think it should remain Uber. If Blaziken is so viable, then you shouldn't need the speed boost ability to make it work ;P

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:14 am

... how can both things on 5 votes each have different percentages?? this vote poll is rigged i tell you
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:53 am

Beats me, it's a free poll so I guess you get what you pay for Laughing

Milotic calcs

252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 369-435 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Without sword dance you'll be able to hit it with a move but with it your more likely just to get ohko. This is assuming you're fully investing in defense too.

Cofagrigus calcs

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 112-133 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 225-265 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cofagrigus is actually a good check. Fully defense invested it is a 3hko without sword dance for flare blitz and two hit with sword dance. By the time it takes cofagrigus out it will have lost a good amount of health to recoil.

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 148-175 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 295-348 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

However if you want to invest in you're special attack then you gambling on whether you'll survive after sword dance.
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:17 am

I need to get ma a Cofagrigus
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:15 am

Another bonus about cofagrigus that I didn't think about before is that its ability mummy will get rid of speed boost.
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:58 am

Who the hell is voting for the mega to be Ou -------_______------- we might aswell get kyogre in ou since its walled by shedinja .XD
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:20 pm

Gatr runs a pretty damn good Milotic, actually. It's what made me consider her in the first place.

Without Speed Boost, Blaziken sits pretty solidly in RU or UU, but certainly not OU. Turns into a frail, slow chicken without it. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:34 pm

Green Charizard wrote:
Another bonus about cofagrigus that I didn't think about before is that its ability mummy will get rid of speed boost.

Sure. If you're willing to sacrifice Cofagrigus.

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 146-173 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 292-344 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention most Cofagrigus run 252 special defence

Your calcs aren't super realistic.

1) Blaziken runs life orb. Period.
2) Cofagrigus has no way of stopping Blaziken from setting up multiple sword dances.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:16 pm

far257 wrote:
1) Blaziken runs life orb. Period.

I've never run Life Orb on Blaziken, it's always been Focus Sash so it could survive that one hit. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:38 pm

Julbos03 wrote:
far257 wrote:
1) Blaziken runs life orb. Period.

I've never run Life Orb on Blaziken, it's always been Focus Sash so it could survive that one hit. Razz

'cause you know... stealth rock.

To me, focus sashes are limited to magic guard pokemon and leads. Blaziken lead would be... itneresting.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:54 pm

Blaziken makes an amazing lead! ...except when they have Talonflame or Azumarill.

Also, while there not an overwhelming number of people using SR, I still find it worthwhile to maintain Defog/Rapid Spin on teams to negate that issue.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:09 pm

Forgot life orb knew I forgot something Razz
Anyways I know full defense isn't realistic which is why I included the clacs without defense investment.

As for the mummy point I made eariler blaziken will probably baton pass boosts to something that can take out cofagrigus (another point I made earlier) and then comeback in with speed boost.
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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:36 pm

What we really need are some new votes... Regular for OU and Mega for Uber!

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:20 pm

You know... I'm kinda on the fence now that I think about it more. With Blazikenite banned to Ubers and the complex ban on Baton Pass in place, regular Blaziken isn't that bad. One way of looking at it is, I think, is did Blaziken get worse or better than gen 5? Probably not the best comparison, strictly speaking, but worth a shot.

Consider that while Blaziken was Uber last gen, he was one of the weakest Ubers and did not do well in competitive Ubers play. Here's what affected Blaziken in X/Y:

Improvements
1) Mega form (banned to Ubers, not relevant)
2) Addition of Baton Pass to moveset (complex ban on Baton Pass - there are way better Baton Pass users in OU, and Blaziken struggles to find a moveslot for it anyway)
3) Addition of new steel-type pokemon Blaziken is strong against (Aegislash - can play mindgames with King's shield and potentially being banned to ubers, Klefki - usage dropped like a stone since swagban, Mega Mawile - in suspect test)

Nerfs
1) New checks: Talonflame - perfect revenge killer, Azumaril - good check, Dragalge - decent check, but OU irrelevant, Mega Char Y - decent check but risks powering up Blaziken's flare blitz
2) New competition for teamslot: speed boost Scolipede
3) Ghost buff (removal of steel resistance) for HJK mindgames

Even with all this, Blaziken is still really, really strong and may serve to make EVERYONE run talonflame (as if the firebirdy wasn't common enough)... but why don't we give it a shot and unban Blaziken, see what happens, and re-ban it if he causes mass havoc.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:37 pm

Because we would have this issue of trying to get it banned again.. Blaze shuts down my play styles. I don't want to have to run Talonflame or any other Blaze counter because I know its gonna come up.. Blaziken was banned to ubers by Smogon for a reason... I agree with them.

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:49 pm

Well, to be fair, Smogon banned Blaziken before their complex ban on baton pass, and we're keeping the mega-stone ban.

Meh, actually I'm fine either way. I thought it would be a cool experiment Razz

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:01 pm

Burly Bear wrote:
What we really need are some new votes... Regular for OU and Mega for Uber!

Agreed, Mega Blaziken is insane, and besides, the poll is... Taking a mind of its own.

Here are some of my own calculations:

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 286-339 (76.4 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 218-257 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Feraligatr would be severely weakened, but it gets the job done, and if this guy can do it, Azumarill can surely do it (with a choiceband, it is a OHKO), keep in mind that Blaziken's flaw is that, anything that does not faint in one turn can OHKO or at least leave it weakened against a priority attack.


And one thing I wanted to get cleared, Blaziken will not run both, Baton Pass and Swords Dance, because, its every set needs Protect, and Blaziken could not afford to leave either of its STAB attacks. So that alone, takes three slots away. Let's remember, if we want a Baton Passer, Scollipede can do it better. That being said, Blaziken can only Baton Pass speed boosts... Rotom-w can KO it with a choice scarf, shoot, even a Jolly Scarf Feraligatr could just switch in, surprise it with its scarf, outspeed and KO with Waterfall, even, after Blaziken's first speed boost, all this without taking a kick. Bring your favorite revenge killer.

252 Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 302-356 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And hey, if all else fails, throw in a freaking Dragonite, or you know what? Dude, use protect on a predicted High Jump Kick. Ghost types are there too, Thunder Wave will cripple it for the rest of the match (no matter the amount of speed boosts).

Some more calcs because this is taking so long:

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 164-192 (46.5 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal                  

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 239-282 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 348-411 (115.2 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 288-338 (95.3 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (flare blitz recoil will end in a stalemate, without ST)

252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 302-356 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 263-309 (78.9 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 322-380 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


It doesn't take an Uber Super Mon to faint a Speed Boost Blaziken, but you do have to play carefully. Worst case scenario, ban Baton Pass, I like mine with Swords Dance anyway

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PostSubject: Re: How should we tier Blaziken?   Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:03 pm

Feraligatr, let along scarf Feraligatr is completely useless outside of this role. Besides, everything mentioned can be accomplished by azumaril better.

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